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From and to Don

Subject: origins of pre-trib doctrine
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 05:24:36 -0500
From: "Don"
To: alrogers

Don wrote:

Dear Brother,

I just came across your website this morning while doing some research and I wondered if you might be able to help me with a problem I've encountered... Recently, I have begun a new Bible Study with my church concerning the Last Days and the events associated with them. The other day, I made the statement to my congregation that the pre-trib doctrine of the rapture was only introduced around 1830 by Margaret McDonald in Scotland and then picked up and widely distributed by others such as John Darby. I had gotten this info by reading Dave MacPherson's book, The Great Rapture Hoax, and other books like Robert Gundry's The Church & the Tribulation. One of the people at the Bible Study said that that was not true and produced a reference from a book by Grant Jeffrey entitled Apocalypse which apparently quotes an obscure passage in a document known as Pseudo-Ephraim, which purports to be written by one of the Syrian church fathers from the 4th century AD but was in reality written by someone assuming his name sometime in the late 6th or early 7th century. In this document, the writer seems to indicate a belief in the pre-trib rapture. He[a]r is a short quote from it: "All the saints and elect of God are gathering together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

Here is my question for you: Have you ever heard of this document, and if so, where can I go to view it in its entirety? You see, I only have a short paragraph of it available to me and I would really like to see its broader context. Its not that I am giving some great weight to this one reference from an extrabiblical source; I would just like to better understand this persons argument so I can address it from a more informed position. I am firmly committed to the doctrine of the post-tribulational Return of Christ and Gathering together of His Saints. I, too, once held the standard line of pre-trib until I could no longer tolerate the Scriptural contortions I would have to perform to try to make it fit together, then the Lord opened my eyes to the truth and I have been trying to share it with whoever will listen. It does seem to be an uphill battle. Please pray for me to have God's wisdom in presenting this truth to my congregation. Thank you. You can e-mail me at .

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Subject: Re: origins of pre-trib doctrine
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 09:29:32 -0800
From: "Al"
To: Don
(2 Tim 4:3-4 KJV) "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Al's reply and response:

Dear Bro Don,

There are a lot of old writings that should be read with a caution light blinking in our head. Just because someone speaks eloquently, with a peace of scripture here and there, and may talk over our heads, does not mean he is a minister of God. This quote that mentions a prior tribulation gathering of the Saints, I believe is just another ploy of Satan to sidetrack the Church and the true teachings of God's inspired word. Some of the old writings and passages that have been found over the years along with one of Ephraem's sermons do not entirely coincide with the word of God. Since the beginning Satan has twisted the words of God and His scriptures, added his lies and continues to do so today. Satan meeting Adam and Eve in the garden (Gen 3:1-6), and meeting Jesus in the wilderness and on the pinnacle (Mat 4:1-11 1) are the first conversations that come to mind.

[I've added more Bible references, which help prove points and for clarification, and other material in brackets since this email.]

When reading or listening to another, just because the writer or speaker might say he knows Christ, does not mean he has been born again. The devils even knew Jesus when He was casting them out (Mark 1:23 2) during His ministry. I believe we need to go first to Jesus and the eyewitnesses who saw God at work, and teach what is recorded in the Bible, not letting Satan persuade us to add to His words (Prov 30:6 3), or twist (2 Pet 3:14-18) them to fit our own scheme. It appears this Ephraem is using parts of Matthew 24 in his sermon. In section 2 he has substituted the word "after" with the word "prior" to the tribulation.

Section 2

We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the day of the For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!

When that is done [substituting the word "after" with the word "prior"], the statement does not fit the following passages of the Bible when the Saints are taken [his elect are gathered together] and God brings judgment -- talking about confusion, and we know God is not the author of it (1 Cor 14:33).

(Mat 24:29-31 KJV) "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: {30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

[This paragraph was added since this email because of farther research. According to some what the writer could be partly saying in the statement in bold letters in Section 2, "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins," is that all the Saints and elect of God die when they are "gathered" before the tribulation and "taken to the Lord" (Isa 57:1-2) -- but all the Saints and elect of God? I believe and have greatly accepted that the pretribbers will do anything to substantiate their false belief, maybe because they do not want to change their mind, that is repent after teaching their error for so long and be proven they have been wrong.]

Some judgments begin to come after the Beast and false prophet have appeared, and the wrath of the Lamb comes after the gathering of the Saints.

[The wrath of the Lamb (Rev 6:15-17) and the Lord God (Rev 14:7-11, 17-20) Almighty (Rev 11:14-18 4) come after the Tribulation (Mat 24:29-31), first resurrection (Rev 20:4-6), (rapture) catching up (1 Th 4:17-18) and gathering together (2 Th 2:1-12) of Saints, the souls that rest (Rev 6:9-11) and the Saints slain on the golden altar (Rev 8:3-4) the Lord bring with Him (1 Th 3:13 5), in which the dead (sleep) in (Jesus) Christ rise first (1 Th 4:13-16 6), the reaping the harvest (John 4:35 7) of the earth (Rev 14:14-16).]

(Rev 6:13-17 KJV) "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. {14} And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; 8 and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 9 {15} And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; {16} And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: {17} For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to [abide] stand?"
(Rev 14:14-20 KJV) "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. {15} And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. {16} And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. {17} And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. {18} And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. {19} And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. {20} And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."
(2 Th 1:7-10 KJV) "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, {8} In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: {9} Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; {10} When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."
(2 Th 2:8 KJV) "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

[The seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, the seven last plagues (Rev 15:1, 6-8; 21:9), are poured out (Rev 16:1-12, 17, 19) after the first beast of Revelation 13:1-8, the second beast of Revelation 13:11-18, which is the false prophet (Rev 16:13-14 10), the image of the beast in Revelation 13:14-15 and the scarlet colored beast, Mystery Babylon of Revelation 17 have appeared and brought about havoc (Acts 8:1-3)].

(Rev 16:1-2 KJV) "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. {2} And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

So then, the one many call the Antichrist (1 John 2:18 11) and the Tribulation have to come before the wrath of God and before the Saints are gathered home [which occurs before wrath]. If there is any confusion, Ephraem [or whoever wrote the sermon] has brought it by using the word "prior" instead of "after," amongst other things.

Paul said:

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." (Acts 20:29-30 KJV).

Another big thing that has crept into the Church after Paul departure was the making of Saints equal with God, and many are making Mary, Jesus' mother equal with Jesus. In section 5 of Ephraem's sermon he say's, "... and the empire of the Christians is handed down by God and Peter." It appears he is equating Peter with God. Peter has nothing to do with it. He was human just like us all and is not to be equated with God. When I see things like this, it infuriates me. Our Father and Jesus are so much, much, much higher in character and nature than any created human. Then also, in section 5, he seems to again twist the scripture, "And of Dan he said, Dan is a lion's whelp: he shall leap from Bashan" (Deu 33:22 KJV). He reads into that scripture text the word "confusion" and uses it to his advantage.

Section 5

Whenever the days of the times of those nations have been fulfilled, after they have destroyed the earth, it shall rest; and now the kingdom of the Romans is removed from everyday life, and the empire of the Christians is handed down by God and Peter; and then the consummation comes, when the kingdom of the Romans begins to be fulfilled, and all dominions and powers have been fulfilled. Then that worthless and abominable dragon shall appear, he, whom Moses named in Deuteronomy, saying:-Dan is a young lion, reclining and leaping from Basan. Because he reclines in order that he may seize and destroy and slay. Indeed (he is) a young whelp of a lion not as the lion of the tribe of Judah, but roaring because of his wrath, that he may devour. "And he leaps out from Basan." "Basan" certainly is interpreted "confusion." He shall rise up from the confusion of his iniquity. The one who gathers together to himself a partridge the children of confusion, also shall call them, whom he has not brought forth, just as Jeremiah the prophet says. Also in the last day they shall relinquish him just as confused.

I can not judge this man whether he is saved or not, and I might seem a little critical of him. Jesus said,

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Mat 10:34 KJV)

I'm not trying to bring division amongst the true believers, for I hope to sever from us false teachings. We all make mistakes and need to be corrected. This Ephraem is long gone, and the errors that are there need to be exposed. So many today are being led down the wrong path, and it's an easy path with too many comfort zones. I want so much for the Church to hear the truth and not the lies of Satan. If a writing appears to be old as the hills, given the name of one of the prophets of the scripture or by a very renowned leader not mentioned in the Bible, it is not necessarily inspired. I'm finding that out more as I read and compare other writings with God's word. You could consider what I've said, and study the sermon even deeper and find some things that I have not found. I do not believe I want to spend any more time on it at this time. The word Pseudo fits very well for this writer -- I do not accept this Ephraem's sermon to be inspired.

With love in Christ!
Al
Last Trump Gathering

References:

1) Mat 4:1-11; Luke 4:1-13
2) Mat 8:28-34; Mark 1:23-26, 34; 5:1-20; Luke 4:33-36, 41; 8:26-39
3) Deu 4:2; 12:32; Prov 30:6; Rev 22:18-19
4) Rev 11:14-18; 19:11-21
5) 1 Th 3:13; Jude 1:14
6) Psa 17:15 Mat 27:52-53; John 11:11-44; Acts 7:60; 13:36; 1 Cor 11:30; 15:6, 18-20, 51 1 Th 4:13-16; 2 Pet 3:4
7) Mat 9:37-38; Mark 4:26-29; Luke 10:2; John 4:35; Mat 13:30, 39; Rev 14:14-16
8) Isa 34:4; Rev 6:13-14
9) Psa 46:2-3; Isa 54:10; Ezek 38:20; Zec 14:4-5; Rev 6:14; 16:20
10) Rev 16:13-14; 19:20; 20:10
11) 1 John 2:18-19, 2:22-23; 4:1-6; 2 John 1:7

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